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Mark Driscoll and the Sex-Driven Church

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 ·

He has been described as everything from cool and edgy to perverted. He goes by the nicknames “the cussing pastor” and “the sexpert pastor”. He is very popular among the young “new calvinists”, and everyone seems to have an opinion on him.

Mark Driscoll is a Reformed Charismatic who holds to the Sovereignty of God, the inerrancy of Scripture, and the Doctrines of Grace. He had his beginnings in the Emergent Church movement, but had to break away as he iterates:

"In the mid-1990s I was part of what is now known as the Emerging Church and spent some time traveling the country to speak on the emerging church in the emerging culture on a team put together by Leadership Network called the Young Leader Network. But, I eventually had to distance myself from the Emergent stream of the network because friends like Brian McLaren and Doug Pagitt began pushing a theological agenda that greatly troubled me. Examples include referring to God as a chick, questioning God's sovereignty over and knowledge of the future, denial of the substitutionary atonement at the cross, a low view of Scripture, and denial of hell which is one hell of a mistake.” (Mark Driscoll's blog "The Resurgence")

All well and good. Mark’s theological framework appears solid. He has even been attacked from the left because of his stance on homosexuality. So why the controversy within the church?

As the church at-large loses confidence in the power of the gospel to change lives, it has adopted everything from pop-psychology to circus acts in an effort to become more “relevant”, all in the name of evangelism. Unfortunately, sex has become the latest church growth gimmick (see here and here), and Mark Driscoll is leading the way in this regard.

Now it is easy to write off Driscoll’s critics as old fashioned prudes who don’t like to mention sex in a public forum. However, this is simply not the case. The Scriptures have plenty to say on the subject of sex, and pastors should preach on this subject without apology. But Driscoll has clearly stepped over the line on several occasions, the subject of his messages including topics like masturbation as birth control, how to turn your wife into a dominatrix, biblical oral sex (Hint: There is no such thing), and crude jokes about a homosexual relationship between himself and Jesus Christ. There is certainly nothing of this type to be found within the Holy Scriptures, but that doesn't stop Driscoll. Perhaps the best example of Mark’s lewd and carnal approach to Scripture is his message entitled “Sex, a Study of the Good Bits from Song of Solomon” from November 18, 2007, (Warning: Quotes are accurate and contain mature content);

See John MacArthur’s response “The Rape of Solomon’s Song”.

Now Solomon’s Song is admittedly a steamy passage about love between a king and his bride, typifying the relationship between Christ and His church. What a shame it is that such a beautiful passage has been twisted and mangled by carnal ministers like Driscoll to become nothing more than a sex therapy manual, as if the main purpose of the book was to teach how to get physical pleasure from your spouse in bed. Not satisfied with the language already existent in the Song of Solomon, Driscoll takes lewd liberties with passages to turn them into soft porn, such as having “apples” refer to male private parts and “gardens” to be female parts (and he doesn't call them "parts"). Consider his “exposition” of Song of Solomon 2:3

"That is oral sex. Is that how you say it in Scotland. You say, “We never say that.” But yes, yes, that’s how some say it, yes. That’s oral sex. It’s in the Bible. All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable. And all the men said, “Amen.” [Laughter from audience.] Amen! Guys are like, “I knew it was in there. I was stuck in Leviticus, I’ve been looking for it my whole life.” [More laughter] What she’s saying is—and here the Bible is frank without being crass, because it’s very poetic – but what she says is, “I like – when you are standing I like to be beneath you and your fruit is sweet to my taste.” This is, all the commentators will agree, or the good ones [laughter from audience], that this is – the rest are liars with very bad marriages and very dour looking wives and we pray for them. But anyways this is a woman saying, “I like to perform oral sex on you, my beloved husband.” What do you men think of this? I’ll tell you ladies what your husbands are hoping and praying deeply, passionately in their seat, is this: oral sex is a gift that a wife gives to her husband and he enjoys it. It’s true. It’s true."

Driscoll tells us that all good commentators will agree that Song of Solomon 2:3 refers to oral sex. What commentators? Gill? Calvin? Henry? No. Barnes, Clarke, Wesley? Not a word. The church Fathers? The Geneva Bible Notes? Scofield? What commentaries? He never tells us, and I doubt that anyone in his captive audience ever asked.

I have no idea what methods of exegesis that they employ at Western seminary (where Driscoll has a “Master of Arts degree in exegetical theology”), but there is no hint of oral sex in this passage. John Gill comments:

"the fruit of the apple tree, to which the allusion is. Solon advised the bride to eat a quince apple before she went into the bridegroom, as leaving an agreeable savour; and intimating how graceful the words of her mouth should be. By "his fruit" here are meant the blessings of grace, which are Christ's in a covenant way, come through his sufferings and death, and are at his dispose; such as peace, pardon, justification, and fresh discoveries and manifestations of his love, of which the apple is an emblem: and these are sweet, pleasant, and delightful, to those that have tasted that the Lord is gracious; whose vitiated taste is changed by the grace of God, and they savour the things of the Spirit of God."

With all due respect to Mr. Driscoll, I would say that John Gill is a pretty good commentator, yet he makes no mention of oral sex, nor does he suggest that the fruit has anything whatsoever to do with the human anatomy. To suggest that the apple refers to a body part is not Biblical preaching, but carnal perversion drawn out of thin air, for the express purpose of tickling the ears of his lust crazed audience.

In short, Mark Driscoll doesn’t even sound like a pastor, but more like a junior high school pervert writing on the bathroom walls. My advice to anyone who hears a pastor over-sexualize Scripture in this manner? Run.

Edit: The quote from the Song of Solomon sermon was an older sermon, and Mark seems to have repented of that sermon...well...sort of...

Spring Cleaning

Let's pray that he will clean up the rest of his sermons.

48 comments:

Puritan said...
6:35 PM  

Amen brother

Andy said...
8:16 PM  

Mark Driscoll has publicly acknowledged that he didn't do a good job with the message that you link to (something that MacArthur doesn't mention, either, from memory) and has thanked people for showing him that.

Whatever you think of Driscoll and his teaching, I think it's pretty poor to make him out as unrepentant and unteachable when there is evidence to the contrary.

Puritan Lad said...
8:30 PM  

Thanks for the link Andy. I am glad to see that "Driscoll has publicly acknowledged that he didn't do a good job with the message", although I would say that this is an understatement of enormous proportions.

Let's pray that he cleans up his act in other sermons, though it may cause him to lose some popularity.

Andy said...
9:17 PM  

@Puritan Lad: Not a problem :)

Don't get me wrong, I thought there were problems with Driscolls SoS sermons, I'm not a mere fanboy putting forward the MH line.

That said, I don't like it when the Peasant Princess series (which did talk about the Gospel, like almost all Mark's stuff) is placed at the same level as that from preachers who seem to think the answers to all marital problems (and their church attendances) can be found between the sheets…

cjbaer said...
10:33 PM  

I find it rather disturbing that people actually take the time to criticize Driscoll for his sermons. His theology is obviously in the right place-- all this controversy is only directing more and more people towards Driscoll who then points them to Christ. All in all, this is small cheese compared to the salvation story.

Plus, I don't think in any way that Driscoll mishandled the SoS series. He repeatedly said that this was for marriage-- he made no mistake in keeping that extremely clear. It's the fundamentalist legalists that can't respect him because he's obviously more innovative than your average pastor and he boldly preaches the truth without shame.

Thus, my question comes down to this: If we do not teach on sex and sexuality, who will? For years the Church has remained silent on this issue and thus the next generation has gotten much of its teaching from MTV and Paris Hilton. Then the Church wonders why the heck the porn industry is making so much money. Seriously?!? Come on, you have better things to do with your time. Go read some books. Go read the Bible. Driscoll's just trying to spread the gospel. Everything points back to Jesus-- I don't see your problem.

Puritan said...
5:07 AM  

Cjbaer, "I find it rather disturbing that people actually take the time to" defend Driscoll at all costs because he's a Calvinist.

You say "Driscoll's just trying to spread the gospel. Everything points back to Jesus"But the problem is Mark Driscoll is just trying to spread Mark Driscoll and pointing everyone to Mark Driscoll.

I also don't see these masses of people coming to Christ through him, I just see bad fruit. For e.g. I find a lot of his defenders on blogs promoting DVD's with bad, language, fornification, in like Ricky Gervais and the Office.

You say "For years the Church has remained silent on this issue and thus the next generation has gotten much of its teaching from MTV and Paris Hilton.---I can't imagine Driscoll fans having a problem in watching MTV, from what I've so far come across. When Driscoll 'converts' turn on MTV, and see all it's lewdness and sensuality they probably think it's just like their Mars Hill "church".

Nor do I remember the Apostle Paul giving instruction that because the 1st century church is in a culture that was obsessed with immoral sex (even more so than today) then we must therefore play to their lusts.

Puritan Lad said...
8:04 AM  

cjbaer,

In addition to what Puritan has added, I also want to deal with these statements.

cjbaer: "Plus, I don't think in any way that Driscoll mishandled the SoS series. He repeatedly said that this was for marriage-- he made no mistake in keeping that extremely clear."

Response: Sorry, but interpreting SOS 2:3 as oral sex is clearly a mishandling of Scripture (and I would add purposely).

cjbaer: "Thus, my question comes down to this: If we do not teach on sex and sexuality, who will? For years the Church has remained silent on this issue and thus the next generation has gotten much of its teaching from MTV and Paris Hilton."

Response: Apparently you didn't even read my post. The church should teach on sex. But it shouldn't make up sexual acts out of thin air (see above) just to tickle the ears of his worldly audience.

cjbaer: "Then the Church wonders why the heck the porn industry is making so much money. Seriously?!?"

Response: Unfortunately, the porn industry and Mark Driscoll are popular for the same reason. A good Calvinist should know what that reason is.

Tiffany Wismer said...
8:56 AM  

Good comments.

Could it be that maybe Mark Driscoll is just immature in his faith? It's an odd thing to say about a pastor... but a pastor turning from heresy to truth isn't super common, either. So maybe things just haven't totally sunk in with him yet? I don't know. Some of things he's said are profane, I agree, and he should really, really not make some of the jokes he makes. But his humility in taking correction is an indication of true faith. I don't know how quick I would be to place him as a false teacher, especially if he's willing to be corrected. John Gill's exposition is better, and more beautiful. But I'm thinking there may be room for Driscoll's interpretation too. God doesn't think sex is dirty, the marriage bed in undefiled. The issue, I think, is whether that kind of interpretation is pulpit-worthy. When there is so much ignorance in the congregations of America about sound doctrine, it doesn't make sense to preach about sex. The truth is, if we hear the Truth, the Spirit will use it to change us; to sanctify us, and then things like whether oral sex is okay (and I see no reason why it wouldn't be) will be obvious to our Spirit-led consciences. Anyway, I think Driscoll's problems are immaturity and a lack of the realization that Truth is powerful to change and inform all areas of our lives by the personal application of the Spirit of God. Truth brings about affection for God which brings about a holy life, so our focus should be on Truth, and setting aside what hinders. Not on whether oral sex is good or bad.

cjbaer said...
9:12 AM  

Again, you completely miss the point. Driscoll is not promoting Driscoll-- he clearly states the salvation message in most if not all of his sermons. I will agree that He has gone too far on occasion, but to bash him because of it? Come on, you have better things to do with your time.

I find irony in the fact that the pharisees condemned Jesus for the exact same reason you condemn Driscoll. Jesus wasn't teaching like Driscoll, but he hung out with all the wrong people-- the pharisees thought he was a drunkard and a sinner. I'm not in any way trying to say that Driscoll is Jesus-- but we as Christians have better things to do with our time than condemn an honest brother who is trying to spread the word.

If his theology was messed up and perverted-- I would agree that we would need to critique his teachings. However, this is an extremely small issue, definitely not one that needs to break unity within the Church.

Andy said...
9:44 AM  

@Puritan: You said:

"You say "Driscoll's just trying to spread the gospel. Everything points back to Jesus"But the problem is Mark Driscoll is just trying to spread Mark Driscoll and pointing everyone to Mark Driscoll.

I also don't see these masses of people coming to Christ through him, I just see bad fruit."
I don't think you're looking that hard. All up, a total of 325 people were baptised at Mars Hill services on Easter Sunday alone. Why make such a ridiculous, sweeping statement?


For e.g. I find a lot of his defenders on blogs promoting DVD's with bad, language, fornification, in like Ricky Gervais and the Office."This is the fallacy of Correlation implying Causation. If this is the case, all you can directly take from this is that many people who support Driscoll need a lot of sanctification and purification. That's all.

Mark Driscoll is a sinner, who needs to repent of sin and grow more like Jesus – he'd be the first to admit that.

Listening to a single one of his sermons leaves you in no doubt as to his position on fornication; I don't think you can connect their views with his sermons at all.

cjbaer said...
9:46 AM  

Well said, Andy.

Anonymous said...
11:33 AM  

Here's the bottom line: Sex is everywhere and must be addressed. Who is going to address it for new Christians and for our children? The world and the school systems? Or the church? Driscoll is stepping up to the plate and talking about things that are uncomfortable to many. I commend him for his willingness to teach us rather than let us be swept away by the teachings of this world. His is shepherding his flock properly, unlike many pastors today.

Puritan Lad said...
12:20 PM  

Tiffany Wismer: "Could it be that maybe Mark Driscoll is just immature in his faith?"

Response: Perhaps, but would that not disqualify him from being a pastor (1 Tim. 3:6)

Anonymous: "Here's the bottom line: Sex is everywhere and must be addressed. Who is going to address it for new Christians and for our children?"

Response: This straWman has been answered, both in the original post, and in the comments. This isn't about the church addressing sex. It is about a carnal and perverted approach to Scripture and turning the sacred pulpit into Sunset Strip. There is no defense for this kind of irresponsible and carnal exegesis.

CJ said...
12:37 PM  

According to you. Jesus was lambasted by the pharisees for the exact same thing. You're destroying other Christians instead of actually doing something useful with your time.

Puritan Lad said...
12:46 PM  

Really CJ? Jesus preached on oral sex in the Song of Solomon? That's a new one on me.

CJ said...
12:48 PM  

JESUS DIDN'T PREACH THE SONG OF SOLOMON! How do you know it wasn't oral sex that Solomon was talking about?

In either case, WHY THE HECK DOES IT MATTER?

Puritan Lad said...
2:15 PM  

The you may want to word your arguments more carefully. Afterall, you told me that "Jesus was lambasted by the pharisees for the exact same thing".

There is no hint of oral sex in the Song of Solomon. Driscoll made this up out of thin air, and then tells us that all good commentators agree with him. Can you name one who does? I can't.

Maybe you should read the post again. Your objections have already been dealt with.

CJ said...
4:28 PM  

My objection isn't what you are criticizing Driscoll for, it's that you are criticizing him in the first place. There are false teachers in this world with false theology and horrible translations... Driscoll isn't one of them.

As to the SoS translation, I would imagine that oral sex would go great with the rest of the book considering the nature of the Song. The entire book is an erotic love tale. You argue that people will pervert it-- that's not the book's fault, that their fault. Driscoll is merely preaching what he firmly believes the book says. It fits in character with the rest of the book. I don't see your problem? Why is it dangerous for him to be addressing oral sex?

Puritan said...
4:59 PM  

CJBaer wrote "I find irony in the fact that the pharisees condemned Jesus for the exact same reason you condemn Driscoll."---Er no!
Or are you trying to tell me Jesus hung out with people so He could make lewd jokes about sex and sins like masturbation with them?

You continue: "Jesus wasn't teaching like Driscoll"---Let's face it, Jesus wouldn't have been crucified, if He had preached as hip and relevant as Driscoll.

"but he hung out with all the wrong people-- the pharisees thought he was a drunkard and a sinner."---Well I think Driscoll is lewd and profane. Not because of the people he hangs out with, but because Jesus said ye shall know them by their fruits, and out of the heart the mouth speaks.

Andy, 325 people being baptised in a church that people should be fleeing for their life from is not the same as coming to Christ. Rick Warren has even more.

Andy said...
6:39 PM  

@Puritan "325 people being baptised . . . is not the same as coming to Christ."If you could see their hearts, you might be in a position to make that statement. I prefer to watch and see if Phil 1:6 is working out in their lives, and the life of their church as a result. Saying people can't come to Christ because you don't like the pastor who preaches to them smacks of theological snobbery of the worst kind. Perhaps they should have consulted you, first?

Or perhaps, just perhaps, "God was pleased through the foolishness of [Preachers like Mark, and his sermons] to save those who believe?"

Julius Mickel said...
8:33 PM  

What's it matter????
Do you not know that there are women being told and men convincing themselves that they have a 'right' to divorce because their spouses were not 'fulfilling' them?? What should a SISTER!!!! in the Lord FEEL like if she's told something is IN the bible and yet she dosn't feel comfortable?? That's LEGALISM!! Driscoll's wife testified to how uncomfortable she felt because of his sharing of 'details' of them before the church (but she got used to it), is that a good example? making our wives 'get used' to our sharing of sexual things?
Going back to the commentators: would any justify Driscoll by saying that God has used him to teach something NEW, that's been COMPLETELY missed since the church started?
Paul told Timothy to 'watch his .... and Doctrine' (can anyone guess that missing important thing? A 'method' can change the message)
Let's say you're as 'humble and repentant' as Driscoll and John Macarthur (solid pastor of 40yrs) who you say you respect tries to contact you, even writes you, would you throw a quick answer together? Make a short video so you could be a special guest at Macarthurs conference? or would you try to get Johnny Mac on the phone or meet face to face and seek some guidance?
Yes i'm a little irritated and that because of the mass influence of someone who is radically changing the 'persona' of a shepherd (and if you think that is 'good' then throw away those books of dead men and church history). It's nothing but a reformed version of Rick Warren (who Driscoll has defended before? hmm?)

Julius Mickel said...
8:37 PM  

Consider also what Phil Johnson wrote at shepherds:
The Scotland sermons (both titled "Sex: A Study of the Good Bits") have been on line in both video and audio format for more than a year. Far from "addressing" the issue when he removed them last week, Driscoll purposely tried to obscure what those messages were and why he removed them. The first edition of his "Spring Cleaning"
http://theresurgence.com/node/1495 post said, "The message was for a smaller, more private, and older audience, and I would not have wanted it posted online in the same way that I would not want some personal conversations that I have in my counseling appointments posted online." In reality, those sermons were preached in two churches, recorded (one of them professionally videotaped) with the express purpose of putting them on line, and they were both on line and freely available from the sponsoring churches for many months. Moreover, there were children as young as eleven (not to mention many single young adults) in attendance when Driscoll gave these messages.

After his "Spring Cleaning" post moved past the top position on his blog, he quietly altered is to say what it now says, removing some of the most obvious inaccuracies.

But that blog-post still doesn't give an accurate account of what those messages were or why they were suddenly removed. If Driscoll's removing them was meant to be taken as an admission that those messages in that context were grossly inappropriate, Driscoll himself gives absolutely no indication of that. So to refer to that post as a token of "repentance" (as some have claimed) is a huge stretch. This way of "address[ing]" these issues is notably lacking in Driscoll's trademark candor.
Driscoll issued several "challenges" to women in those Scotland messages, most of which cannot be quoted here for propriety's sake. What he has done and said is far more grotesquely inappropriate for mixed audiences that any of the highly publicized "sex challenges." It's not at all inappropriate to draw a connection between what he has done and what the sex-challenge churches are doing....
See, for example, this message,
http://www.marshillchurch.org/media/proverbs/lovemaking
which was not expunged with the Scotland sermons. The second half is similar in content to the Scotland lectures, only toned down somewhat.

nuff said

Puritan Lad said...
9:02 PM  

CJ,

I could ask you why you are criticizing me, but that would be fruitless.

The issue isn't whether or not oral sex is permissible in marriage (I agree that it is). SoS is definiitely a steamy love story, and I have no problem with it being addressed as such. The problem is Driscoll's false teaching that book contains actual descriptions of oral sex and his "lewd liberties" that he takes with "apples" and "gardens". I'm wondering if you've even read my post, or if you are just defending Driscoll in a knee-jerk fashion. I have clearly laid out my complaints against Driscoll, and you keep throwing up strawmen like "somebody needs to teach on sex".

It is wrong to illustrate such carnality in the pulpit, and it is wrong for any pastor to tell his listeners "here is what you should be doing to your husband or wife". That kind of stuff is for couples to decide among themselves. Then to twist the Bible into a sex therapy manual is unthinkable. Whether or not Solomon and his bride actually participated in such acts is irrelevant. The fact is, despite Driscoll's claims, the Bible has nothing to say on the subject. That's the problem, trying to get the Scripture to say what he wants it to say. He needs to preach the Word, not try and turn it into the kama sutra.

CJ said...
10:41 PM  

I'm not even going to touch that, mainly because I think there's no point in continuing this any further. I don't agree with much that you have said-- you are attacking Driscoll because you think he's wrong. It's like shooting your hand because it's not like the eye. The beauty of the Christian body is that different parts perform different functions. Driscoll is on the front lines of spreading the gospel to Seattle and the surrounding area. I bet you that he's done more for the sake of the gospel than you have-- yet you still continue to denounce him with your words. He needs your prayers, not your condemnation.

Why the hell would you attack a fellow brother just because you don't like his style? That's so far beyond absurd, it's just ridiculous. If his theology on the major points of Christianity were off, I might see a purpose in criticizing his teaching-- but it's not. Whether SoS is talking about oral sex or not, DOES IT MATTER? NO! The couple is married, and as you pointed out, it's completely allowed within marriage. Why the controversy then? Can't you just agree to disagree on the smaller points? Why attack him?

Who do you think you are that you can just point the judgmental legalistic Pharisaical finger at anybody who doesn't agree with you? Are you God that you can know the exact interpretation of the Bible? Are you even a Bible scholar? Can you even read? You're like a small child that is angry with the other kids because they aren't like him. Grow up, buddy. Live your life. Driscoll is working extremely hard to promote the gospel and Jesus-- having you breathe down his back with a scourging whip doesn't help.

I don't condone everything Driscoll does-- He's not perfect, and he often crosses the line. He's young and on fire-- don't quench that just because he touched a soft spot for you. He has much older and wiser counsel-- John Piper among them. Your voice is just that of a gnat that is annoyingly buzzing around. You must have better things to do with your time than criticize a hard working brother who is trying to spread the gospel. Stop shooting allies. Grow up.

Anonymous said...
4:43 AM  

Hi CJ, I have been reading this conversation and I just feel that you have gone too far with some of your comments towards Puritan Lad. I do understand where you are coming from, and I can empathize with you on how frustrating it can be to see an admired pastor being judged for something you feel is out of the context of his entire faith. But, belittling and insulting Puritan Lad doesn't make your point. I hope that you can have peace in your heart towards him though he may not ever agree with your point of view. I do not believe this argument should warrant such animosity. If this is because he reminds you of someone who hurt you, may you forgive that person and find peace. Blessings.... David.

Puritan said...
6:02 AM  

CJBaer, Andy, CJ, and other Driscoll fans,

You seem to equate salvation, to a ticking off a check list of certain reformed truths. That is the only way you can claim what Driscoll is doing is good for the Gospel.

As Julius has rightly said, Driscoll is only a refomred version of Rick Warren. Driscoll is doing as much damage to the reformed church as Warren has and is doing to the professing evangelical church.

Puritan Lad said...
8:02 AM  

CJ,

The best defense that you can give for Driscoll is to defend his exegesis. I have noticed that none of his supporters have attempted to do so. Instead, they use ad hominems to accuse Driscoll's critics of ad hominems. Go figure. This isn't about "style" or about "the church must teach on sex". This is about a man who warps God's Word in order to entertain his sex-crazed audience. His preaching is irresponsible and perverted.

The Scriptures have a specific meaning, and we are not allowed to make them say whatever we want them to say. (And Driscoll should know this.)

In order to have any fruitful discussion, Driscoll supporters may want to deal with my specific complaints against him instead of making things up. However, since they listen to Driscoll make things up from the Scriptures all the time, I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

arthurandtamie said...
1:00 PM  

A couple of thoughts coming in on this conversation late, perhaps as an outsider:

1. I'm saddened not to see more gentleness and mercy throughout the comments. It's not even a question of whether anything explicitly sinful has been said, it's just disappointing when brothers and sisters take up a pugilistic tone against each other. We need to honour others as better than ourselves. We will be known to outsiders by what love we have for each other. And fleeing the evil desires of youth has plenty to do with hot-headed words, very little to do with sex.

2. We all hate irresponsible and perverted preaching, as Puritan Lad said. But we especially seem to flip out when this concerns sex. What about when preaching is irresponsible and perverted for other reasons, like failing to speak into people's lives? The Word of God is living and active. I can't help wondering if evangelical/reformed Christianity has bigger fish to fry, like preaching that doesn't pierce hearts and minds.

arthurandtamie said...
1:01 PM  

From Arthur, that is

Puritan Lad said...
2:13 PM  

Thanks Arthur,

We are no fans of any sort of "irresponsible and perverted preaching". It just that the lewd and perverted teachings such as what has been mentioned above are the main problem with Mark Driscoll.

Besides, I have been very critical pastors such as Warren and Osteen, and rightly so. Should I bring myself to give Driscoll a free pass just because he happens to be Reformed? Afterall, judgment begins in the household of God.

Driscoll has many supporters, so this was bound to be a hot-button topic. But it needed to be said, and his supporters need to really consider what they support.

C. Stirling Bartholomew said...
11:46 PM  

Late to the party but must say that MD's reading of Song of Song's as "prescriptive" for the Church is totally insane. I just reviewed all the major serious works on Song of Song's written since Marivn Pope's AB 1977. Nobody sees it they MD is preaching it.

Puritan Lad said...
8:40 AM  

Thanks CSB,

I'm not sure about "insane", but definitely carnal and perverted. Anyone who looks as SoS in this way has missed Christ, and cannot have been taught of the Spirit of God.

arthurandtamie said...
9:20 AM  

Hi Puritan Lad -- just thinking over things again.

What is SoS actually about? Your article implies, I think, that SoS should be read allegorically or 'spiritually' so that its subject is the relationship between Jesus and his church.

What do you think?

Arthur

Puritan Lad said...
9:42 AM  

Hey Arthur,

SoS definitely typifies Christ and his Church. However, it's not purely "allegorical" in the sense that these are legitimate love letters between Solomon and his bride. I have no problem with the latter approach, though all good preaching should ultimately lead to Christ. The problem with Driscoll's approach is that he makes things up in order to "shock jock" his audience and appeal to their lusts. The detailed descriptions of sex acts (like his expostion of Songs 2:3) are not found in the Bible, but rather in Driscoll's own mind.

arthurandtamie said...
7:06 PM  

All pastors and teachers have got their shortcomings, and I think one of MD's weaknesses is a literalistic handling of Scripture. In this case, I do question the way he arrives at his 'biblical mandate' for oral sex.

Yet, I think at a basic level MD has read SoS correctly -- in that SoS focuses on a marital relationship. SoS is not purely about sex, nor would I call SoS a sex manual. However, at various points it is profoundly and beautifully erotic poetry. All Scripture ultimately points to Christ, yet at the same time I think SoS is essentially 'natural' and only distantly allegorical. I reckon MD's in the right ballpark.

There also seems to be a range of sexual experiences on view in SoS. So while we might not find oral sex explicitly 'taught' in SoS, I figure it's legitimate to discuss oral sex as part of applying SoS.

The appropriateness of MD's language is of course a separate question.

I don't think MD's so much out on a limb with his exegesis.

What do you reckon?

Puritan Lad said...
9:05 PM  

I think the MD definitely went out on a limb here (and I have yet to find a good commentator who agrees with him). Even worse is that he treats this like a Biblical mandate for women to do this to their husbands. That is for each couple to decide, as suggestions for explicit sex acts have no place in the pulpit. If this were a private marriage counseling session for a couple, I could give him some leeway on the suggestion, but the exegesis is still not very good (to put it mildly).

Of course, this is only one of several examples of how MD oversexualizes Scripture. If he must, there is plenty of steamy language already in SoS. Even then, however, SoS isn't meant to be a sex therapy manual.

arthurandtamie said...
9:42 PM  

It sounds like you mostly take issue with MD's language and the appropriateness of his content for a public sermon -- and fair question!!

Coming back to exegesis... As crude as MD's exegesis appears in this sermon, it is supported at a basic level by at least some good modern commentators, who have questioned the church's long history of allegorical interpretation.

Here's how my Old Testament textbook summarises SoS:

'The book's primary aim is not to portray the relationship between God and his people, but rather to extol sexual love between a man and a woman. ... [It is] a canonical corrective to the perversion of sexuality. ... However, the Song is more than a canonical sex manual as some recent treatments have implied. ... "The SoS redeems a love story gone awry [ie Gen. 3:7]". The book pictures the restoration of love to its pre-fall bliss. But the story does not end here. ... God has a covenant with his people much like the marriage covenant: it promises and requires exclusive allegiance when Israel commits adultery against the Lord. They in effect seek to divorce him (Ezek. 16, 23; Hos. 1-3). The NT uses the same metaphor positively. ... It is thus not inappropriate to read the SoS as a poem reflecting on the relationship between God and his people, as long as the primary reference to human sexuality is not repressed.'

Longman & Dillard's 'An Introduction to the OT' 2nd ed, Apollos 2007 (299-300).

They also note the physicality of the poetry, including 'a number of beautiful and provocative metaphors for the woman's vagina' (296).

Obviously the preaching of this content is another question.

Puritan Lad said...
8:00 AM  

Thanks Arthur,

Again, there is no doubt that SoS is a human love story and references sexuality. Even "the church's long history of allegorical interpretation" acknowledges this, though I do have to question the idea that it contains 'a number of beautiful and provocative metaphors for the woman's vagina'. In any case, one has to really stretch the carnal mind in order to find oral sex in SoS 2:3. This is not exegesis, and any commentator who would agree (I have yet to find one) is one that should be avoided at all costs. Still more at issue is what I mentioned above, is the recommendation of specific sex acts from the pulpit.

Also, I see no reason to "question the church's long history of interpretation". Any interpretation that has escaped the minds over every Christian for 2,000 years, and then suddenly makes an appearance in our modern, sex-crazed culture, is questionable at best.

Anonymous said...
2:38 PM  

Well of course Calvin didn't say anything in his commentary on Song of Songs, he didn't write one! A lot of reliable commentators didn't because it is such a difficult book.

I'm curious as to what your opinions would be on Tommy Nelson's interpretation of Song of Songs, being an older more educated less edgy pastor. Driscoll is not the only guy who interprets Song of Songs in a sexual way. It might be something worth honestly looking into instead of just bashing Mark because he is "hip and edgy" or whatever you said. I see a lot of pride in this post, but on the flip side it is good to dialogue about these things, just in a more humble manner.

Puritan Lad said...
3:01 PM  

Haven't read Tommy Nelson's work, so cannot say, though I haven't been a big fan of his works in the past. As for the generalization of interpreting Song of Songs in a sexual way, I have made it clear that this is valid, as long as it remains true to the meaning of the text. However, if Nelson finds oral sex in SoS 2:3, then his commentary should be cast out with the rest of the rubbish. There is simply no defense for this type of exegesis other than a lewd and carnal mind. See above comments.

arthurandtamie said...
2:22 AM  

Longman & Dillard (among others) argue against past allegorical readings of SoS for two reasons:

1. Such readings reveal more about the readers' worldviews than the text itself. E.g. church fathers like Origen were heavily influenced by Hellenistic (eg Platonic) thought, and sought to de-nature and de-sexualise life in general.

2. Such readings would have been nonsense to the original recipients of the text. A sexual/natural reading of SoS is strongly suggested by parallels with other love poetry of the Ancient Near East. In other words, SoS was telling God's truth about sex in the language of its time, just as Genesis 1-3 was telling God's truth about creation in a parallel to other creation accounts.

I also noticed you were thinking of reading The Shack, maybe? My wife wrote a couple of critiques -- but be sure to read the novel first!!

http://arthurandtamie.wordpress.com/2008/11/23/the-shack/

Cheers :)

Puritan Lad said...
8:20 AM  

Arthur and Anonymous,

Please read the original post carefully again as well as the comments. It seems as if I have to keep answering the same strawmen over and over again.

Regarding SoS 2:3, of course it is allegory, unless we are to believe that Solomon was a literal apple tree and his bride was eating a literal apple. But the fact is that no one, at least until recently, has interpreted this as a specific sex act, and then used it as a sex instruction manual as recommended practice for his audience.

This isn't about whether or not SoS has a sexual nature. It is about the lewd, carnal, and irresponsible handling of Scripture by MD. Another blogger gave a good description of Driscoll which I think is quite accurate. He's like a pubescent teenager who has just found a playboy magazine in his attic and can't wait to show his friends. In the case of SoS 2:3, however, I would have to say that Driscoll goes a step further, and actually seeks out and purchases the magazine himself.

T. Salas said...
2:29 AM  

So he "didn't do a good job with that passage"?

LOL!

Anonymous said...
12:56 AM  

I too have had trouble with Mark's teaching on SoS of late. Seems like he is saying what he wants to, and not what the Bible says, especially in the Scotland messages quoted by MacArthur.

SoS is love poetry, but never goes to specifics. Perhaps that is the lesson Mark Driscoll needs to learn. The Bible maintains the most honorable, elevated, and vague (in a certain way) language and description throughout (except that, it does galvanize the senses with all the talk of fruit, and scenes of life, and architecture), giving metaphorical honor to something God obviously intended to be private between spouses (notice those images don‘t have to pull us to think--here‘s a penis, there a areola).

I think of Paul’s simple “Let the husband do what is good for the wife and the let the wife do what is good for her husband” on that note (I Cor. 7). Do we need an explicit description of that? Probably not too much. And if we do, there is always the private conversation with a trusted brother, sister, or elder in the faith--or gasp--our parents. Furthermore, aren’t our minds supposed to stay away from concentrating on the sexuality of other people who are not our spouses--especially the opposite sex? I wonder how many men in the church tried to check out Mark’s wife’s behind after he made those comments about her (if she was there).

Marriage is about giving first of all--and hugely so--not about taking. Not about recreating every “normal” sex act the male mind desires with our spouse, but first of all, loving them as a brother or sister in the Lord--husbands as a sacrificial leader, wife as loving and obedient spouse (shew, hope no one skewers me for the word “obedience.”). That is NT, and beyond that, the Song can inform us of the kind of passion (note, not specific acts) that ought to inflame our heart for our beloved spouse in romance.

I was recently working with middle-aged man in my field, construction, who is rough around the edges--and he said a beautiful thing about the sexual part of marriage--he said, “It’s important, maybe for several years, but it isn’t what matters in the end--it gets harder to do, eventually it‘s not what keeps you together, more important things take it‘s place…” He didn’t finish his statement--but I believe my friends, that he was talking about what’s most important in SoS and the NT in marriage--enduring love, expressed in service and fellowship.

Greg

Puritan Lad said...
8:06 AM  

Amen Greg,

The fact, contrary to much of what is being presented today, is that the Bible has nothing to say about "how to have great sex", nor does it give any instructions on specific sx acts. Those who take this approach are clearly using sex as a church growth gimmick. The trouble, as James White says, is "what you draw them with is what you draw them to".

Clearly Mark D. hasn't fully separated himself from the emergent church yet. Too much of it still resides in his ministry philosophy.

Anonymous said...
7:26 PM  

Oh yeah, PL, I just thought of something. I was watching "Let Him Kiss Me" a sermon in Driscoll's "Peasant Princess" series to get a better view of this controversy. Driscoll defined sex as "god," "gross," or "gift" in relation to the way people view it. Of course, he said it was not gross, and in so many words that God thought it was good and gave it as a gift as a preliminary to his later discussion.

Good scripture to research on that note would be those concerning circumcision in Genesis 17. MacArthur says the foreskin was cut off on account of the "seed" of the man producing depraved and dying (if not redeemed) sinners--thus it was in this part of the body that sin had one of its most pronounced expressions, and God had people cut their boys to show that deep cleansing was necessary. Not to mention the benefits against STDS (yuck). Or how about Exodus 19, where Israel who were getting ready to meet holy God were forbade by Moses from having sex for 3 days before they entered His manifest presence? This is related to worship law in Leviticus 15 where regular intercourse is a source of worship uncleanness.

I know someone could easily hamstring what I am saying here on NT grounds if I pressed it too far, but suffice to say, there was evidently something about the Israelites normal sexual lives that didn’t completely jive with the direct presence of God in worship in Israel. That’s something for Christian sexaholics to consider…the natural result of intercourse is a child that is born in sin under the wrath of God, and which may not be saved. That’s heavy stuff! The pattern in Scripture is salvation for the families of those who know the true God, but that is certainly not an absolute. Only today are we provided with birth control strong enough to prevent this possibility a lot of the time, so that’s probably why we don’t consider things like this. The other alternative in Christian family is the weighty task of bringing kids up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Driscoll sounds like sex is a free fun gift for marrieds--its not free at all, considering these possibilities, and though it may still be fun, these Scriptures might give us a more well-rounded biblical and lest post-sexual revolution perspective on sex itself.

Puritan Lad said...
8:52 PM  

I think the New Testament supports what you are saying (1 Cor. 7:5).

Too many people today are professing faith in Christ, yet bow at the feet of Aphrodite.

Anonymous said...
5:08 AM  

"There is no hint of oral sex in the Song of Solomon. Driscoll made this up out of thin air."

Yes, and has preached it on numerous occasions to packed Sunday morning services full of families with little children, single adults, teens and tweens.

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