tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34749839.post115981340169244032..comments2024-01-24T15:46:14.823-05:00Comments on Covenant Theology: The Myth of Libertarian Free WillPuritan Ladhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02240560332777968090noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34749839.post-54910056886984567592008-04-18T15:56:00.000-04:002008-04-18T15:56:00.000-04:00Anonymous,Your analogy of the check and the mansio...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>Your analogy of the check and the mansion are flawed on a number of points, but the most significant is what I brought up earlier. Did the work of Christ actually save anybody, or did it make salvation merely a possibility for everybody? Scripture supports the former, that Christ actually seeks and saves. Your analogy, however, only works in the latter case.Puritan Ladhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02240560332777968090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34749839.post-68433495271555576872008-04-17T20:56:00.000-04:002008-04-17T20:56:00.000-04:00My friend, I know the background you come from. My...My friend, I know the background you come from. My wife and I were raised in a pentecostal holiness denomination (Church of God). But scripture is very clear to me now and I have no problem accepting it as Romans 9 was the final straw for me. Scripture says that Christ was a propitiation for our sins. Propitiation essentially means a wrath remover. If Christ has removed the wrath of God from unbelievers then why are they in Hell? To believe otherwise is to believe in a cosmic double jeopardy. This is what the atonement of Christ does...it pays for the sins of those intended and it never fails. <BR/><BR/>John 5:21 says 21"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes." Does he wish for all to be saved? John 6:65 says it must be granted by the Father and John 10:26 Jesus tells the Pharisees that they do not believe because they are not part of His sheep-not they are not part of his sheep BECAUSE they do not beleive- that is a key distinction in this verse. <BR/><BR/>Mark 4:10-12 states it like this:<BR/><BR/>10As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables.<BR/><BR/> 11And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables,<BR/><BR/> 12so that WHILE SEEING, THEY MAY SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE, AND WHILE HEARING, THEY MAY HEAR AND NOT UNDERSTAND, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT RETURN AND BE FORGIVEN."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34749839.post-35775647165947210452008-04-17T18:44:00.000-04:002008-04-17T18:44:00.000-04:00Or you can go here: http://www.stevekmccoy.com/ref...Or you can go here: http://www.stevekmccoy.com/reformissionary/2005/07/tim_keller_arti.html and scroll down to the "Suffering: If God is good, why is there so much evil in the world?"Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00163349492413856606noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34749839.post-88503102289573940262008-04-17T18:40:00.000-04:002008-04-17T18:40:00.000-04:00A great sermon that may help answer this question ...A great sermon that may help answer this question comes from Tim Keller. He discusses the problem of evil and suffering in the world and he establishes that without a loving and all powerful God, the problem cannot be adequately understood nor dealt with. It can be found here: http://download.redeemer.com/sermons/Suffering_If_God_is_good.mp3Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00163349492413856606noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34749839.post-39112549084455996492008-04-17T17:18:00.000-04:002008-04-17T17:18:00.000-04:00My assertion that Christ died for all sinners is b...My assertion that Christ died for all sinners is backed up by Scripture. And yes, I believe that Christ's sacrifice paid the debt that everyone in the world owes or ever owed. Christ died for Hitler, Stalin, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. just as much as he died for me. They (as far as I know, and their actions certainly indicate they didn't) did not choose to accept his sacrifice.<BR/><BR/>I do not believe that God forces his will upon us to accept or reject Him. What kind of love forces the other to love him or her? Rather love is chosen.<BR/><BR/>I am saved because I have confessed with my mouth that 'Jesus is Lord', and do believe in my heart that God raised him from the dead [Romans 10:9]. My unsaved friends have not done that. Whether they haven't done so because they are predestined not to do so, or because they haven't exercised their free will to do so is essentially what we're debating right now. Ultimately I don't entirely care what the answer is because my job isn't to analyze why, it is to do my job of "going into all the world" and sharing the Good News, regardless of whether that news is accepted or not, and for what reason.<BR/><BR/>I disagree with your opinion that the blood of Christ is made worthless by people not accepting it; if I give you a cheque for $1,000,000.00 and you choose not to deposit or redeem it, the cheque itself does not become worthless. Or, since you may argue that a cheque is merely a piece of paper, a promissary note: if I buy you a million-dollar mansion and give it to you, and all you have to do is accept the deed to the house to transfer ownership of it from me to you, and you refuse to accept it, the home does not suddenly become worthless; you have merely chosen not to accept such a gracious and undeserved gift. Obviously the analogy doesn't begin to compare with the free gift of grace that has bestowed on us through Christ's supreme sacrifice, but I believe it somewhat makes my point.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, you asked if I'm being true to all of the Scriptures or trying to force my will upon the text. This is a serious matter for us all to consider any time we read Scripture and interpret and apply it to our lives. I don't profess to know everything there is to know about Scripture or that my understanding is flawless. However I trust that each day God is revealing more and more of Himself to me, and that someday "I will know as I am known", and these questions all become moot when I am face-to-face finally with my Saviour.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34749839.post-49183643115620442542008-04-17T16:02:00.000-04:002008-04-17T16:02:00.000-04:00Here is where the rubber meets the road regarding ...Here is where the rubber meets the road regarding the atonement. You suggest that “he died for the sins of everyone. Unfortunately, some people never accept his sacrifice for their sins.” First of all, if Jesus died for everyone, then you must reject the idea that He actually paid for sins, securing eternal redemption. Otherwise, it would be impossible for anyone to ever go to Hell. In other words, if what you say is true, then there are millions of souls currently burning in the fires of Hell that are just as much bought with the blood of Christ as you and I. It is that view that makes Christ’s sacrifice “insufficient or found lacking”. In fact, it makes the blood of Christ absolutely worthless to the vast majority for which it was intended.<BR/><BR/>You are correct that the saved are those who willing accept Christ’s sacrifice. But this cannot happen unless the will is changed. Let me ask you, why are you saved, while your unbelieving friends are not? If you attribute the difference to “free will” as opposed to election, then you must believe that there is some virtue in you that enabled you to believe, whereas the unbeliever lacks this virtue. You are saved because you made a better decision that the unbeliever. This virtue, whether it me some goodness or wisdom, enabled you to make a better decision than the unsaved. What is this virtue? I know not of it. Thankfully, God did not turn me over to my wicked free will, but gave me a new heart, and a new spirit He put within me. And He removed the heart of stone from my flesh and gave me a heart of flesh. And He put His Spirit within me, and causes me to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules. (Ezekiel 36:26-27).<BR/><BR/>I ask you to consider, are you being true to all of the Scriptures, or are you trying to force your will upon the text? It is an important issue for a variety of reasons, and one the we need to get right.Puritan Ladhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02240560332777968090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34749839.post-54815286609756655732008-04-17T14:47:00.000-04:002008-04-17T14:47:00.000-04:00I won't address all of your questions; suffice to ...I won't address all of your questions; suffice to say that we differ in our interpretations of what some of them mean.<BR/><BR/>As for what exactly Jesus accomplished on the cross: I believe he died for the sins of all of mankind. [1 John 2:2, Romans 5:18] To believe otherwise to me implies that Jesus' sacrifice was in some way insufficient or found lacking to be able to cover the sins of all humanity.<BR/><BR/>Rather, he died for the sins of everyone. Unfortunately, some people never accept his sacrifice for their sins. This isn't saying that God is unable to make his Will happen. This is saying that God is unWilling to force people to accept His sacrifice--they must do it willingly out of the knowledge of what He has done for them, and under the prompting of the Holy Spirit, which confirms in their hearts what they are hearing (or reading).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34749839.post-86725055878117469662008-04-17T13:51:00.000-04:002008-04-17T13:51:00.000-04:00I too, struggled with these passages at first. Th...I too, struggled with these passages at first. The concept of Limited Atonement is the most difficult of all of the “five points” to wrestle with, because it does, at first glance, seem to conflict with the two passages to have mentioned. <BR/><BR/>Regarding 2 Timothy 2:1-4, Paul is clearly defending his ministry to the gentiles (verse 7). Therefore, the phrase “all men” refers to all men without distinction, rather than all men without exception. This is the case in most of the passages like this.<BR/><BR/>So how do I know that my interpretation is correct? First of all, if you are correct in stating that “God's will is that everyone (without exception) to believe and be saved”, then we have a God who is incapable of doing what he wills. <BR/><BR/>Second, How would you reconcile your interpretation of these passages with Proverbs 16:4, Romans 9:21-23, or Jude 1:4?<BR/><BR/>Ultimately, however, the entire debate really comes down to the work of Christ at Calvary. What exactly did Jesus accomplish on the cross? Did He actually save anybody, or did He just make salvation a mere possibility and leave it to us to apply it with our own virtuous resources? The Scriptures are pretty clear that Christ’s work actually saves.<BR/><BR/>"She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21)<BR/><BR/>"For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." (Luke 19:10)<BR/><BR/>"The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost." (1 Timothy 1:15)<BR/><BR/>You see, if God were to leave salvation up to our own "free will", then none would be saved. Free will is the cause, not the solution, to our sinful nature. Our free will cannot change our own wicked hearts.<BR/><BR/>Again, Christ "gave himself to us to redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar (chosen) people, zealous of good works" (Titus 2:14)<BR/><BR/>"He entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking ... his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption" (Hebrews 9:12), so "...that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" (2 Corinthians 5:21). Has this been accomplished for every single person on the planet? Who did Christ "secure an eternal redemption" for? Again, Christ came to “lay down His life for His Sheep…to give them eternal life, and they shall never perish” (John 10:11, John 10:27-28).<BR/><BR/>"He redeemed us from the curse, being made a curse for us" (Galatians 3:13), to “purge your consciences from dead works to serve the living God." (Hebrews 9:14). This was the completed, effectual work of our Lord Jesus Christ at Calvary. Can it be rightly said by anyone that Christ did this for every person who ever lived? This is the question that the non-calvinist will have to wrestle with.Puritan Ladhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02240560332777968090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34749839.post-22158754136952721072008-04-17T13:29:00.000-04:002008-04-17T13:29:00.000-04:002 Peter 3:9"The Lord is not slack concerning His p...2 Peter 3:9<BR/>"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."<BR/><BR/>Anonymous - I appreciate your viewpoint, but you need to contextualize - <B>who is Peter addressing in the letter?</B>:<BR/><BR/>2 Peter 1<BR/><BR/>Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, <B>To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours</B>, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ<BR/><BR/>To your overall point - if God's wills that <B>none at all</B> by your definition - meaning anyone and everyone, should perish - isn't God failing? <BR/><BR/>Unless you believe in the universal redemption of everyone, this does not make sense.<BR/><BR/>Would you embrace a heretical belief to support your rationale or except the clear teaching of Scripture - that is - Peter is speaking to the elect of God with a clear presumption that the elect would be taught and edified.<BR/><BR/>Blessings!oddXianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15427095709766850092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34749839.post-91173148373743810662008-04-17T12:43:00.000-04:002008-04-17T12:43:00.000-04:00Thank you for the response. As for my background,...Thank you for the response. As for my background, since you asked, I was raised in the Pentecostal denomination, and would consider my own viewpoint somewhere in the middle between the extreme Calvinist or extreme Arminianist viewpoint. However I'm not a biblical scholar (other than in the sense that all Christians are as students of the Word); so I lean heavily on the works and questions of others in forming some of my theological viewpoints.<BR/><BR/>I disagree with your interpretation of the above passage, as I don't believe that God "is not willing that any should perish" refers to the elect alone. Paul was writing to the elect; why would this passage be directed to them, as he was already writing to those that would not perish by default?<BR/><BR/>Also, 2 Timothy 2:1-4 certainly talks about the need for us to pray and intercede for all, and that this is good and pleases God, "who wants all men to be saved". I don't see any indication of this being reserved to a subset of humanity, but that it applies to everyone.<BR/><BR/>I guess my personal belief, which has been taught to me, and which I believe is consistent with Scripture, is that God's will is that <B>everyone</B> to believe and be saved. It is up to each person, having heard the message, and having been convicted by the Spirit of God, to receive or to reject this free gift of God. God has given us the freedom to choose Him or not.<BR/><BR/>As to the problem of tragedy above, I agree that there is no very satisfactory answer from either side--as you say either God causes the evil events to occur, or He does nothing to prevent them.<BR/><BR/>I do favour the latter answer, as it is consistent with the concept of free will, which I do believe is as much supported by Scripture as the opposing viewpoint is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34749839.post-74080148155950510332008-04-17T11:33:00.000-04:002008-04-17T11:33:00.000-04:00Hey Anonymous,Thanks for the comment. You certain...Hey Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the comment. You certainly didn’t belittle anything or sound argumentative. In fact, you asked some very fair questions, and as a former Arminian myself, I can understand your objections. I’m not saying that you are Arminian as I don’t really know where you are coming from.<BR/><BR/>First and foremost, I’m glad that you have recognized the Biblical basis for my defense of the doctrines of sovereign grace. This is where we must start. Scripture and Scripture alone must define out doctrinal beliefs, otherwise we are tempted let our own humanistic opinions override God’s Word, and leave us in a sea of confusing doctrines created by self-opinionated thinkers. And we’ve all done it.<BR/><BR/>Second, I hear where you are coming from with regards to God’s Sovereignty and tragedy. However, let me point out that the “free will” view does not adequately answer the issue any better than the Calvinist view. After all, if God “foreknew” Hitler’s actions, and yet did nothing to stop him, how is He any better than if He simply predestined them? Of course, a third alternative is the “open-theist” view; that Hitler’s actions took God by surprise. Thus God was neither wise enough to know Hitler’s actions, nor was powerful enough to withstand them. In this case, however, God’s most glorious attributes are denied, and God is not God, but rather a very wise chess player.<BR/><BR/>We have similar examples of tragedy in Scripture. In some cases, God sent wicked men as a judgment against other wicked men (See Babylon over Egypt in Isaiah 20:1-4). In other cases, God raised up wicked men to try his own people (See Pharaoh in Romans 9). <BR/><BR/>One of the most sobering passages dealing with tragedy can be found in Luke 13:1-5. Jesus was dealing with a couple of tragic events, namely “the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices” and “those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them”. He didn’t resort to questioning God’s purpose or power concerning these events, but instead offered a rebuke. “No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3, 5). The point being that God owes no man a tragedy free life, much less salvation. Anything we get from Him is by His grace, totally undeserved.<BR/><BR/>We don’t know why God allows wickedness at all, except for His own glory and to bring about his own ends. As you read in the post, even the most tragic event in history, the crucifixion of the Son of God, was predestined and brought to pass by the sovereign work of God. We don’t know why or how God was at work in Hitler’s monstrous acts, but we can be sure that God will be glorified by them in whatever way he so chooses.<BR/><BR/>Regarding 2 Peter 3:9, I addressed this in more detail in my <A HREF="http://covenant-theology.blogspot.com/2006/10/it-is-finished-atoning-work-of-christ.html" REL="nofollow">limited atonement post</A>, but I’ll copy it here.<BR/><BR/><I>” 1.) ”The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9)<BR/><BR/>This would be a big problem for Limited Atonement, if this is actually what the verse said. What it actually says is...<BR/><BR/>2 Peter 3:9 <BR/>"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering <B>toward us</B>, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."<BR/><BR/>The promise and the patience is “toward us”, not to every person on planet earth. Who is "us"? Who is Peter writing to?<BR/><BR/>2 Peter 1:1 <BR/>"Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:"<BR/><BR/>Peter is writing this to the elect, "To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ". This verse is absolutely true. God is not willing that any of his elect should perish, but that all of them should come to repentance. And they will, as we have already established in dealing with the intercession of Christ.”</I>Puritan Ladhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02240560332777968090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34749839.post-10225000219206115512008-04-17T09:59:00.000-04:002008-04-17T09:59:00.000-04:00Hi there,Interesting defense of the Calvinist view...Hi there,<BR/><BR/>Interesting defense of the Calvinist viewpoint; certainly you have Scripture that you have used to back up your points. However, I can't reconcile what you're saying to the actions of, for instance, an Adolf Hitler and his Nazi regime. How was it God's will that men, women, children, and infants be tortured, raped, have obscene medical experiments done on them, etc? This is only one extreme historical example--there are of course many others.<BR/><BR/>How do you reconcile 2 Peter 3:9 with your theology?<BR/><BR/>I'm not raising these points to belittle or even to be argumentative, I just honestly can't easily reconcile the two in my mind.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com